Discussion:
OI boot problem
(too old to reply)
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-22 20:50:06 UTC
Permalink
Since last October I've had OI 147/148 running on a new home PC. A while ago I attempted to mirror it. All seemed good though I didn't fully check that the mirror booted (silly me etc. - this is a home PC). Then the worst happened and the new drive where OI was installed failed. So I'm left with the drive carrying the mirror that doesn't boot (currently the only drive in the machine). Is this recoverable - or is it goodbye to OI ?

Some specifics:

I can boot from the live USB image and inspect my original OI using

zpool import -f -R /a rpool

and mount 0i_148-2 (my last instance of OI) at /a using beadm mount

If I try

ls /a/rpool/boot/grub

I find

bootsign capability menu.lst splash.xpm.gz

and

ls /bootsign shows a file pool_rpool.

If I unmount 0i_148-2 and reboot, Grub tries to start, but I get

"booting '0i_148-2'

findroot (pool_rpool,1,a)

Error 15: File not found   Press any key to continue"

which takes me to the grub editor.

Changing values for "1" and "a" (to anything else) is of no consequence, nor is

deleting them to use simply "findroot (pool_rpool)".

Any suggestions as to how to fix this, or indeed advice that it can't be fixed much appreciated.

Thanks

Guy
Matt Connolly
2011-03-23 09:58:09 UTC
Permalink
On my system, I see:

***@vault:/opensolaris/boot/grub$ ls /rpool/boot/grub/
bootsign capability menu.lst splash.xpm.gz

and

***@vault:/opensolaris/boot/grub$ ls /boot/grub/
bin e2fs_stage1_5 install_menu menu.lst pxegrub stage1 ufs_stage1_5 xfs_stage1_5
capability fat_stage1_5 iso9660_stage1_5 minix_stage1_5 reiserfs_stage1_5 stage2 ufs2_stage1_5 zfs_stage1_5
default ffs_stage1_5 jfs_stage1_5 nbgrub splash.xpm.gz stage2_eltorito vstafs_stage1_5

There's definitely more files in /boot/grub in the active boot environment than there is in /rpool/boot/grub.

Perhaps you can boot off the live disc, and

# installgrub PATH/boot/grub/stage1 PATH/boot/grub/stage2 /dev/rdsk/c0t1d0s0

exchanging PATH for the mount path to what was the active boot environment, not just the root of the pool.

I checked on my machine if I `beadm mount be_name mount_point` then in `/mount_point/boot/grub/' I see the full list of boot files.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how `beadm mount` goes at mounting boot environments from another pool.


Hope that helps somewhat,

Matt
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Since last October I've had OI 147/148 running on a new home PC. A while ago I attempted to mirror it. All seemed good though I didn't fully check that the mirror booted (silly me etc. - this is a home PC). Then the worst happened and the new drive where OI was installed failed. So I'm left with the drive carrying the mirror that doesn't boot (currently the only drive in the machine). Is this recoverable - or is it goodbye to OI ?
I can boot from the live USB image and inspect my original OI using
zpool import -f -R /a rpool
and mount 0i_148-2 (my last instance of OI) at /a using beadm mount
If I try
ls /a/rpool/boot/grub
I find
bootsign capability menu.lst splash.xpm.gz
and
ls /bootsign shows a file pool_rpool.
If I unmount 0i_148-2 and reboot, Grub tries to start, but I get
"booting '0i_148-2'
findroot (pool_rpool,1,a)
Error 15: File not found Press any key to continue"
which takes me to the grub editor.
Changing values for "1" and "a" (to anything else) is of no consequence, nor is
deleting them to use simply "findroot (pool_rpool)".
Any suggestions as to how to fix this, or indeed advice that it can't be fixed much appreciated.
Thanks
Guy
_______________________________________________
OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-23 10:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Matt - you've put your finger on the problem. I have no /a/boot/grub !

I'd noticed that the live USB image has /boot/grub with the entries you identify. I wasn't sure what to make of that.

I don't really get your line

"exchanging PATH for the mount path to what was the active boot environment, not just the root of the pool."

what was the active boot environment ? How do I discover that ?

Cheers

Guy





--- On Wed, 23/3/11, Matt Connolly <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Matt Connolly <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 9:58

On my system, I see:

***@vault:/opensolaris/boot/grub$ ls /rpool/boot/grub/
bootsign       capability     menu.lst       splash.xpm.gz

and

***@vault:/opensolaris/boot/grub$ ls /boot/grub/
bin                e2fs_stage1_5      install_menu       menu.lst           pxegrub            stage1             ufs_stage1_5       xfs_stage1_5
capability         fat_stage1_5       iso9660_stage1_5   minix_stage1_5     reiserfs_stage1_5  stage2             ufs2_stage1_5      zfs_stage1_5
default            ffs_stage1_5       jfs_stage1_5       nbgrub             splash.xpm.gz      stage2_eltorito    vstafs_stage1_5

There's definitely more files in /boot/grub in the active boot environment than there is in /rpool/boot/grub.

Perhaps you can boot off the live disc, and

# installgrub PATH/boot/grub/stage1 PATH/boot/grub/stage2 /dev/rdsk/c0t1d0s0

exchanging PATH for the mount path to what was the active boot environment, not just the root of the pool.

I checked on my machine if I `beadm mount be_name mount_point` then in `/mount_point/boot/grub/' I see the full list of boot files.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how `beadm mount` goes at mounting boot environments from another pool.


Hope that helps somewhat,

Matt
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Since last October I've had OI 147/148 running on a new home PC. A while ago I attempted to mirror it. All seemed good though I didn't fully check that the mirror booted (silly me etc. - this is a home PC). Then the worst happened and the new drive where OI was installed failed. So I'm left with the drive carrying the mirror that doesn't boot (currently the only drive in the machine). Is this recoverable - or is it goodbye to OI ?
I can boot from the live USB image and inspect my original OI using
zpool import -f -R /a rpool
and mount 0i_148-2 (my last instance of OI) at /a using beadm mount
If I try
ls /a/rpool/boot/grub
I find
bootsign capability menu.lst splash.xpm.gz
and
ls /bootsign shows a file pool_rpool.
If I unmount 0i_148-2 and reboot, Grub tries to start, but I get
"booting '0i_148-2'
findroot (pool_rpool,1,a)
Error 15: File not found   Press any key to continue"
which takes me to the grub editor.
Changing values for "1" and "a" (to anything else) is of no consequence, nor is
deleting them to use simply "findroot (pool_rpool)".
Any suggestions as to how to fix this, or indeed advice that it can't be fixed much appreciated.
Thanks
Guy
_______________________________________________
OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Matt Connolly
2011-03-23 22:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Thanks Matt - you've put your finger on the problem. I have no /a/boot/grub !
I'd noticed that the live USB image has /boot/grub with the entries you identify. I wasn't sure what to make of that.
I don't really get your line
"exchanging PATH for the mount path to what was the active boot environment, not just the root of the pool."
I meant PATH is where you've mounted you desired boot environment, which appears to be /a. I wasn't sure if you'd simply mounted the 'rpool' into /a or 'rpool/ROOT/be-name'.
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
what was the active boot environment ? How do I discover that ?
I'm no expert on the internals of the beadm tool. Or even if it can mount boot environments from another pool.

But if you 'zfs list' you should see rpool/ROOT/opensolaris (or similar, that's what my original one was called, and look for the files in there.

In any case, can't you run the 'installgrub' command sourcing the stage1 and stage2 files from the live USB mount and install them onto your drive??

Matt.
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Cheers
Guy
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-26 15:11:37 UTC
Permalink
With some help from Matt Connolly, and reference back to an earlier exchange on OI-Discuss last November/December ("livecd zpool import -fR /a xpool but no files") I have got to the following:
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zpool import
  pool: rpool
    id: 9386677491605087289
 state: ONLINE
action: The pool can be imported using its name or numeric identifier.
config:

   
rpool       ONLINE
      c5d0s2    ONLINE
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zpool import -f -R /a rpool

***@opensolaris:~$ zfs list
NAME                       USED  AVAIL  REFER  MOUNTPOINT
rpool                     17.6G  16.8G  47.5K  /a/rpool
rpool/ROOT                8.14G  16.8G    31K  legacy
rpool/ROOT/0i_148         30.5M  16.8G  5.33G  /a
rpool/ROOT/0i_148-1       10.4M  16.8G  5.43G 
/a
rpool/ROOT/0i_148-2       7.83G  16.8G  5.51G  /a/a
rpool/ROOT/openindiana    38.3M  16.8G  4.91G  /a
rpool/ROOT/openindiana-1   242M  16.8G  3.50G  /a
rpool/dump                1.93G  16.8G  1.93G  -
rpool/export              5.49G  16.8G    32K  /a/export
rpool/export/home         5.49G  16.8G    32K  /a/export/home
rpool/export/home/Guy     5.49G  16.8G  5.49G  /a/export/home/Guy
rpool/swap                2.05G  18.8G   124M  -
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec
zfs set mountpoint=/b rpool/ROOT/0i_148-2

***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zfs mount rpool/ROOT/0i_148-2
***@opensolaris:~$ cd /a/b
***@opensolaris:/a/b$ ls
bin    core  devices  home    lost+found  net        proc    rpool   tmp
boot   data  etc      kernel  media      opt        rmdisk  sbin    usr
cdrom  dev   export   lib     mnt      platform  root    system  var
***@opensolaris:/a/b$
***@opensolaris:/a/b$ cd /a/b/boot
***@opensolaris:/a/b/boot$ ls
acpi  grub  solaris  solaris.xpm

***@opensolaris:/a/b/boot$ cd /a/b/boot/grub
***@opensolaris:/a/b/boot/grub$ ls
bin   
       install_menu     pxegrub        ufs_stage1_5
capability     iso9660_stage1_5  reiserfs_stage1_5  ufs2_stage1_5
default        jfs_stage1_5     splash.xpm.gz        vstafs_stage1_5
e2fs_stage1_5  menu.lst         stage1            xfs_stage1_5
fat_stage1_5   minix_stage1_5     stage2            zfs_stage1_5
ffs_stage1_5   nbgrub         stage2_eltorito
***@opensolaris:/a/b/boot/grub$ cd

***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zpool export rpool
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec reboot -f
Failed to process GRUB menu entry for fast reboot, no
such entry found
Falling back to regular reboot.


System then continues as though it had just been powered up, but after the BIOS screens it halts at a black screen with GRUB_ in the top left hand corner. The only possible action then is to switch off. So there is no fast reboot in the USB live image (of OI-147).

Obviously I am missing something here (probably quite a lot) but I don't see what to try next. If anything looks wrong in the above, or any suggestions as how to boot 0i_148-2 please tell me!

Guy



--- On Wed, 23/3/11, GUY WOOLLEY <***@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: GUY WOOLLEY <***@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana"
<openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Wednesday, 23
March, 2011, 10:28

Thanks Matt - you've put your finger on the problem. I have no /a/boot/grub !

I'd noticed that the live USB image has /boot/grub with the entries you identify. I wasn't sure what to make of that.

I don't really get your line

"exchanging PATH for the mount path to what was the active boot environment, not just the root of the pool."

what was the active boot environment ? How do I discover that ?

Cheers

Guy





--- On Wed, 23/3/11, Matt Connolly <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Matt Connolly <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 9:58

On my system, I
see:

***@vault:/opensolaris/boot/grub$ ls /rpool/boot/grub/
bootsign       capability     menu.lst       splash.xpm.gz

and

***@vault:/opensolaris/boot/grub$ ls /boot/grub/
bin                e2fs_stage1_5      install_menu       menu.lst           pxegrub            stage1             ufs_stage1_5       xfs_stage1_5
capability         fat_stage1_5   
   iso9660_stage1_5   minix_stage1_5     reiserfs_stage1_5  stage2             ufs2_stage1_5      zfs_stage1_5
default            ffs_stage1_5       jfs_stage1_5       nbgrub             splash.xpm.gz      stage2_eltorito    vstafs_stage1_5

There's definitely more files in /boot/grub in the active boot environment than there is in /rpool/boot/grub.

Perhaps you can boot off the live disc, and

# installgrub PATH/boot/grub/stage1 PATH/boot/grub/stage2 /dev/rdsk/c0t1d0s0

exchanging PATH for the mount path to what was the active boot environment, not just the root of the pool.

I checked on my machine if I `beadm mount be_name mount_point` then in
`/mount_point/boot/grub/' I see the full list of boot files.

The only thing I'm not sure about is how `beadm mount` goes at mounting boot environments from another pool.


Hope that helps somewhat,

Matt
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Since last October I've had OI 147/148 running on a new home PC. A while ago I attempted to mirror it. All seemed good though I didn't fully check that the mirror booted (silly me etc. - this is a home PC). Then the worst happened and the new drive where OI was installed failed. So I'm left with the drive carrying the mirror that doesn't boot (currently the only drive in the machine). Is this recoverable - or is it goodbye to OI ?
I can boot from the live USB image and inspect my original OI using
zpool import -f -R /a rpool
and mount 0i_148-2 (my last instance of OI) at
/a using beadm mount
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
If I try
ls /a/rpool/boot/grub
I find
bootsign capability menu.lst splash.xpm.gz
and
ls /bootsign shows a file pool_rpool.
If I unmount 0i_148-2 and reboot, Grub tries to start, but I get
"booting '0i_148-2'
findroot (pool_rpool,1,a)
Error 15: File not found   Press any key to continue"
which takes me to the grub editor.
Changing values for "1" and "a" (to anything else) is of no consequence, nor is
deleting them to use simply "findroot (pool_rpool)".
Any suggestions as to how to fix this, or indeed advice that it can't be fixed much appreciated.
Thanks
Guy
_______________________________________________
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-26 17:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

If Oi_148-2 is a boot environment (BE), I just wonder why you don't
use /usr/sbib/beadm to mount this BE? I have also tried to mount
using zfs mount and in the end the file system became useless.

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-26 17:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Thanks - I've tried what you suggest but as noted above "reboot" just leads to the black screen with GRUB_.

In the scenario of my previous post, if I do
pfexec bootadm update-archive -R /a/b

I get

bootadm: missing /boot/grub on root: /a/b

and I don't know how to fix that.

Guy

--- On Sat, 26/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 17:37
Hello,

If Oi_148-2 is a boot environment (BE), I just wonder why you don't
use /usr/sbib/beadm to mount this BE? I have also tried to mount
using zfs mount and in the end the file system became useless.

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
Chris Ridd
2011-03-26 20:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Thanks - I've tried what you suggest but as noted above "reboot" just leads to the black screen with GRUB_.
You know that the reboot command isn't the safe way to reboot a Solaris system? The man page will say something like it doesn't shut down services properly.

Chris
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-26 19:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Thanks - I've tried what you suggest but as noted above "reboot"
just leads to the black screen with GRUB_.
In the scenario of my previous post, if I do
pfexec bootadm update-archive -R /a/b
I get
bootadm: missing /boot/grub on root: /a/b
and I don't know how to fix that.
 
Mount the BE with beadm after importing rpool:

# beadm list
# beadm mount OS_148 /a
# /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/stage1 /a/boot/stage2 dev/rdsk/c0d0s0

The device should be replaced with the your device. I believe you can
use format to identify your disk. Now you can do the update-archive thing.

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-26 20:05:33 UTC
Permalink
OK - actually I don't see that in the man pages which I've read; be that as it may, what do you suggest ?

--- On Sat, 26/3/11, Chris Ridd <***@mac.com> wrote:

From: Chris Ridd <***@mac.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 20:00
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Thanks - I've tried what you suggest but as noted above "reboot" just leads to the black screen with GRUB_.
You know that the reboot command isn't the safe way to reboot a Solaris system? The man page will say something like it doesn't shut down services properly.

Chris
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-26 20:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
OK - actually I don't see that in the man pages which I've read; be that
as it may, what do you suggest ?
Alasdair Lumsden
2011-03-26 20:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...

I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a 'pain in the ass'.

I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.

What do others think?

Alasdair.

--
Alasdair Lumsden
***@gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 13:10:35
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana<openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Reply-To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
OK - actually I don't see that in the man pages which I've read; be that
as it may, what do you suggest ?
From man reboot:

   

    The  reboot  utility  does  not  execute  the   scripts   in
     /etc/rcnum.d  or  execute shutdown actions in inittab(4). To
     ensure  a  complete  shutdown  of   system   services,   use
     shutdown(1M) or init(1M) to reboot a Solaris system.

 
In different words, use init 6,

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece





_______________________________________________
OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
OpenIndiana-***@openindiana.org
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openin
Chris Ridd
2011-03-27 12:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...
I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a 'pain in the ass'.
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.
What do others think?
I agree. It is surprising that the Indiana project attempted to make Solaris more Linux-like and then left some obviously different commands around.

Perhaps adding /usr/gnu/bin/reboot etc would be a compatible way to fix this?

Chris
Alan Coopersmith
2011-03-27 15:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Ridd
I agree. It is surprising that the Indiana project attempted to make Solaris more Linux-like and then left some obviously different commands around.
It was never going to be completed overnight, and work on updating the
commands to resolve differences with other systems is still an ongoing
project in Solaris 11-land.
--
-Alan Coopersmith- ***@oracle.com
Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System
Richard L. Hamilton
2011-03-27 17:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Ridd
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...
I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a 'pain in the ass'.
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.
What do others think?
I agree. It is surprising that the Indiana project attempted to make Solaris more Linux-like and then left some obviously different commands around.
Perhaps adding /usr/gnu/bin/reboot etc would be a compatible way to fix this?
Chris
Well I've always found anything other than the System V way of doing things to be
amateur hour.

Compatibility isn't just with scripts, it's with people too.

Besides, what's so hard to remember about
shutdown -i6 -y -g0 ?
Nikola M.
2011-03-28 10:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard L. Hamilton
Post by Chris Ridd
I agree. It is surprising that the Indiana project attempted to make Solaris more Linux-like and then left some obviously different commands around.
Perhaps adding /usr/gnu/bin/reboot etc would be a compatible way to fix this?
Chris
Well I've always found anything other than the System V way of doing things to be
amateur hour.
Compatibility isn't just with scripts, it's with people too.
Besides, what's so hard to remember about
shutdown -i6 -y -g0 ?
Well, I agree that remembering
shutdown -g 0 -y -i 5 for shutdown machine is not that hard.

BUT that is the question I was asked from newcomers a year ago
(Obviously you know where newcomers are coming from.. from Linux and
very few quite new ones) and I did not told them because I also did not
know. (I told him pfexec halt and he was angry at me and whole
distribution for not doing full shutdown).
I figured that out by being stubborn and looking at man pages, and that
is what 99 percent of eventual newcomers will not do.

If I told them that shutdown command needs 3 switches or looking at man
pages and remembering of them, then I would be laughed at.

I think everyone is thinking that old behavior should working as
expected. Just There is need for a command, like /halt/ or other named
that definitely shutdowns machine with one command.
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 11:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Hello Nikola!
Post by Nikola M.
Well, I agree that remembering
shutdown -g 0 -y -i 5 for shutdown machine is not that hard.
BUT that is the question I was asked from newcomers a year ago
(Obviously you know where newcomers are coming from.. from Linux and
very few quite new ones) and I did not told them because I also did not
know. (I told him pfexec halt and he was angry at me and whole
distribution for not doing full shutdown).
I figured that out by being stubborn and looking at man pages, and that
is what 99 percent of eventual newcomers will not do.
While you may be right here, I fail to see the problem. The command
"init 6" is not so hard to find, especially when someone comes over
from Linux.
Post by Nikola M.
If I told them that shutdown command needs 3 switches or looking at man
pages and remembering of them, then I would be laughed at.
But shutdown does not need three switches. Here are the defaults as
defined in shutdown (it is a shell script):

grace=60
askconfirmation=yes
initstate=s

So without switches, it would also work. You'd just have to wait
60 seconds longer, you'd have to type "y" in response to a prompt,
and you would end up in single user mode.
Post by Nikola M.
I think everyone is thinking that old behavior should working as
expected. Just There is need for a command, like /halt/ or other named
that definitely shutdowns machine with one command.
Really? Maybe the default "s" could be changed to "6". But other
than that, I don't see a need for another command, in addition to
"shutdown" and "init" and "halt/reboot" and "uadmin". :-)


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Nikola M.
2011-03-28 13:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Hello Nikola!
Hi! Thank you for your response.
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Post by Nikola M.
I figured that out by being stubborn and looking at man pages, and that
is what 99 percent of eventual newcomers will not do.
While you may be right here, I fail to see the problem. The command
"init 6" is not so hard to find, especially when someone comes over
from Linux.
I think that init X is mostly not connected in mind of newcomers with
shutting down machine. (At least I am pretty much scared to use it,
myself) ;)
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Post by Nikola M.
If I told them that shutdown command needs 3 switches or looking at man
pages and remembering of them, then I would be laughed at.
But shutdown does not need three switches. Here are the defaults as
grace=60
askconfirmation=yes
initstate=s
So without switches, it would also work. You'd just have to wait
60 seconds longer, you'd have to type "y" in response to a prompt,
and you would end up in single user mode.
Maybe newcomers would expect to end up actually doing shutdown.
It is not problem for us who know it.
Thing is how to make new ones them to stay.
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Post by Nikola M.
I think everyone is thinking that old behavior should working as
expected. Just There is need for a command, like /halt/ or other named
that definitely shutdowns machine with one command.
Really? Maybe the default "s" could be changed to "6". But other
than that, I don't see a need for another command, in addition to
"shutdown" and "init" and "halt/reboot" and "uadmin". :-)
Yes something like that, changing something that would make easier for
new users to actually shut it down. Like, halt is shutdown that actually
do power off the hardware.
Thank you for your thougths.
Toomas Soome
2011-03-28 11:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikola M.
Post by Richard L. Hamilton
Post by Chris Ridd
I agree. It is surprising that the Indiana project attempted to make Solaris more Linux-like and then left some obviously different commands around.
Perhaps adding /usr/gnu/bin/reboot etc would be a compatible way to fix this?
Chris
Well I've always found anything other than the System V way of doing things to be
amateur hour.
Compatibility isn't just with scripts, it's with people too.
Besides, what's so hard to remember about
shutdown -i6 -y -g0 ?
Well, I agree that remembering
shutdown -g 0 -y -i 5 for shutdown machine is not that hard.
BUT that is the question I was asked from newcomers a year ago
(Obviously you know where newcomers are coming from.. from Linux and
very few quite new ones) and I did not told them because I also did not
know. (I told him pfexec halt and he was angry at me and whole
distribution for not doing full shutdown).
I figured that out by being stubborn and looking at man pages, and that
is what 99 percent of eventual newcomers will not do.
If I told them that shutdown command needs 3 switches or looking at man
pages and remembering of them, then I would be laughed at.
I think everyone is thinking that old behavior should working as
expected. Just There is need for a command, like /halt/ or other named
that definitely shutdowns machine with one command.
shutdown command (script) is to make it possible to generate announces and grace time. thats all about it. the "correct" fast way in solaris is to use init command. in opensolaris based distributions you *can* now use reboot as well, which was updated to be safe, but its *not* safe for solaris 10 or older ones. if its still too hard to understand, you can always just use shutdown from gnome system menu....

and still, if you wanna have linux commands, just use linux.

toomas
Nikola M.
2011-03-28 13:11:44 UTC
Permalink
On 03/28/11 01:31 PM, Toomas Soome wrote:
in opensolaris based distributions you *can* now use reboot as well,
which was updated to be safe, but its *not* safe for solaris 10 or older
ones. if its still too hard to understand, you can always just use
shutdown from gnome system menu....
Post by Toomas Soome
and still, if you wanna have linux commands, just use linux.
Agreed.
Just we need to think of expanding user base,admin and dev base
and init X does not remind me on halt.

Perheaps to make turnoff alias for init 5 (or 6)?
Do you think that present halt command could be made to shutdown power
to machine by default in OpenSolaris based distributions?
Or to change shutdown default behavior?

I think present reboot command can not shut down machine or I am wrong?
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 13:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toomas Soome
in opensolaris based distributions you *can* now use reboot as well,
which was updated to be safe, but its *not* safe for solaris 10 or older
ones. if its still too hard to understand, you can always just use
shutdown from gnome system menu....
Post by Toomas Soome
and still, if you wanna have linux commands, just use linux.
Agreed.
Just we need to think of expanding user base,admin and dev base
and init X does not remind me on halt.
Perheaps to make turnoff alias for init 5 (or 6)?
Do you think that present halt command could be made to shutdown power
to machine by default in OpenSolaris based distributions?
Or to change shutdown default behavior?
I think present reboot command can not shut down machine or I am wrong?
There are two "families" of commands:

- init and shutdown (shutdown is a script that calls init)
- halt, poweroff, and reboot (they are hardlinks to one binary)

Please look at:

init(1M)
shutdown(1M)
halt(1M) (the same man page as poweroff)
reboot(1M)


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Nikola M.
2011-03-28 13:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker A. Brandt
- init and shutdown (shutdown is a script that calls init)
- halt, poweroff, and reboot (they are hardlinks to one binary)
init(1M)
shutdown(1M)
halt(1M) (the same man page as poweroff)
reboot(1M)
Thanks Volker,
I just re-checked them all with man command.

Do you support any change from the way that it is done now by default?
Post by Volker A. Brandt
If you really care we could create some shutdown/halt/reboot
wrappers in /usr/gnu/bin which just call /usr/bin/shutdown with
the appropriate options, should be simple.
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 13:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikola M.
Do you support any change from the way that it is done now by default?
Post by Guido Berhoerster
If you really care we could create some shutdown/halt/reboot
wrappers in /usr/gnu/bin which just call /usr/bin/shutdown with
the appropriate options, should be simple.
i certainly would not mind. I have /usr/gnu/bin somewhere at the
end of my $PATH anyway. :-) Or maybe "/usr/linuxcompat" or something
like that...
Post by Nikola M.
So we could make this an "install-time" option. It should provide a
nice big warning that doing this may break applications written for
(Open)Solaris. If they still want to go forward then they have been
dutifully warned.
Yes. This could be in a separate package.


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Tom Kranz
2011-03-28 08:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...
I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a 'pain in the ass'.
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.
What do others think?
Never used them ;-) init 6 to reboot, init 0 to go to OBP, and init 5 to power off.

Cheers,
TOM

- --
Tom Kranz
Email: ***@gaeltd.com Skype: siliconbunny
Mobile: 07779 149281 Phone/fax: 01344 773240
http://www.gaeltd.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/tomkranz
Toomas Soome
2011-03-28 08:51:21 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...
I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a 'pain in the ass'.
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.
What do others think?
Never used them ;-) init 6 to reboot, init 0 to go to OBP, and init 5 to power off.
just for an reminder, solaris is neither bsd nor linux.

toomas
Witek Świerzy
2011-03-28 09:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

This is my second post to this mailing list, - so Hello to All,
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an
adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour
I agree, but ....
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.
Rather Linux guys should think about some standards ...
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Never used them ;-) init 6 to reboot, init 0 to go to OBP, and init 5 to power off.
exactly :)

thanks,

Witek Swierzy
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
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Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...
I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a
'pain in the ass'.
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an
adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more
in line with BSD and Linux.
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
What do others think?
Never used them ;-) init 6 to reboot, init 0 to go to OBP, and init 5 to power off.
Cheers,
TOM
- --
Tom Kranz
Mobile: 07779 149281 Phone/fax: 01344 773240
http://www.gaeltd.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/tomkranz
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_______________________________________________
OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Nikola M.
2011-03-28 11:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
What do others think?
Alasdair.
+ for it. Like new command or new switch or something else.

Together with making old users happy with their known default behavior
where it is.
But newcomers I suppose are more/most important.
Guido Berhoerster
2011-03-28 11:37:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Excuse the top-posting, I'm on my Blackberry...
I've always found the default solaris reboot and shutdown commands a 'pain in the ass'.
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD and Linux.
What do others think?
If you really care we could create some shutdown/halt/reboot
wrappers in /usr/gnu/bin which just call /usr/bin/shutdown with
the appropriate options, should be simple.
--
Guido Berhoerster
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-26 20:43:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
I doubt there are many systems out there that would be broken by an adjustment
to the default reboot and shutdown behaviour to bring them more in line with BSD
and Linux.
What do others think?
 
A couple of years ago my system (SXCE) became non-functional because I used
a reboot :-( So something must be done about it.

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-26 20:49:14 UTC
Permalink
Ok - I stand corrected; in my particular case I see no difference in result between init 6 and reboot (black screen with GRUB_ etc).

G

--- On Sat, 26/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 20:10
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
OK - actually I don't see that in the man pages which I've read; be that
as it may, what do you suggest ?
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-26 20:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Thanks - I get this, which I hope reproduces your suggested commands

***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zpool import -f -R /a rpool
***@opensolaris:~$ beadm list
BE            Active Mountpoint Space   Policy Created         
--            ------ ---------- -----   ------ -------         
0i_148        -      -          30.46M  static 2010-12-18 08:49
0i_148-1      -      -          10.43M  static 2010-12-26 20:52
0i_148-2      R      -          8.57G   static 2011-02-21 18:46
openindiana   -      -          38.25M  static 2010-10-09 18:14
openindiana-1 -      -          241.83M static 2010-10-09 20:24
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec beadm mount 0i_148-2 /a
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/stage1 /a/boot/stage2 /dev/rdsk/c5d0s0
/a/usr/sbin/installgrub: No such file or directory
***@opensolaris:~$

What does that imply ?

G

--- On Sat, 26/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 19:28
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Thanks - I've tried what you suggest but as noted above "reboot"
just leads to the black screen with GRUB_.
In the scenario of my previous post, if I do
pfexec bootadm update-archive -R /a/b
I get
bootadm: missing /boot/grub on root: /a/b
and I don't know how to fix that.
 
Mount the BE with beadm after importing rpool:

# beadm list
# beadm mount OS_148 /a
# /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/stage1 /a/boot/stage2 dev/rdsk/c0d0s0

The device should be replaced with the your device. I believe you can
use format to identify your disk. Now you can do the update-archive thing.

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-26 21:13:32 UTC
Permalink
I would just use:

#zpoll import -f rpool

the -R /a sets the altroot property which I think is not what you want.
Provided you did a


# mkdir /a

A.S.

 
----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-26 21:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Thanks - what does this mean ?Did I misunderstand you ?

***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zpool import -f rpool
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec mkdir /a
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec beadm mount 0i_148-2 /a
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/stage1 /a/boot/stage2 /dev/rdsk/c5d0s0
cannot read stage1 file /a/boot/stage1
Error opening /a/boot/stage1
***@opensolaris:~$


G

--- On Sat, 26/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Saturday, 26 March, 2011, 21:13
I would just use:

#zpoll import -f rpool

the -R /a sets the altroot property which I think is not what you want.
Provided you did a


# mkdir /a

A.S.

 
----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-27 08:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
/dev/rdsk/c5d0s0
 
OK the last command is not correct. My apologies. It should be

# /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/grub/stage1 /a/boot/grub/tage2 /dev/rdsk/c5d0s0

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-27 09:12:30 UTC
Permalink
OK - thanks; I enter the corrected sequence of commands, and restart. I get the (dead) black screen with the GRUB_, as before.

I've previously printed out my old menu.lst and have tried editing the grub listing of the live usb image by adding in the findroot, bootfs etc commands from the old menu.lst. When I boot that I get
findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
file not found

where I think X=1, Y=a are correct (I currently only have one disk), but anyway changing X,Y has no effect. I thought findroot was associated with /a/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign which I see when I import my rpool. Should it be somewhere else as well ?

Cheers

Guy



--- On Sun, 27/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Sunday, 27 March, 2011, 9:48
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
/dev/rdsk/c5d0s0
 
OK the last command is not correct. My apologies. It should be

#  /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/grub/stage1 /a/boot/grub/tage2 /dev/rdsk/c5d0s0

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-27 09:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
file not found
On two systems I have just checked:

$ ls -l
σύνολο 1
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 0 2010-05-19 17:49 pool_rpool
$ more pool_rpool
$ pwd
/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign


Now when you boot with the live thing just
make sure the file exists. Otherwise, created with

# touch /a/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign/pool_rpool


 Now the X and Y parameters in findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
corresponds to the disk partition (0 is the first one) and
the slice within the partition (slices start with a).

 A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Nikola M.
2011-03-28 20:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
Apostolos, Hi,
Sorry but it is interesting to me and I need to ask:
Is it only me or I keep seeing your every message as new topic?
Could it be it is you? and do you think it could be avoided for you somehow?

(I personally hit reply in Thunderbird and Every time I get message
right inline with topics, like it should.)
Cheers!
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-27 09:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Apologies - I overlooked the update-archive thing before rebooting. Things are different now, though not yet right.


I follow your set of commands, then do
pfexec bootadm update-archive -R /a

export rpool and shut down.

On restarting and pointing at the the harddisk (not usb), the line grubstage2 flashes by, there is some problem and then it jumps to trying to load the live image, and says it can't mount the selected partition, press any key to continue.

If I do that I get the bright blue grub screen for the live usb image options which I can edit. If I edit in the command list from my original menu.lst and try to boot I get

findroot (pool_rpool,1,a)
File not found

That seems to be the nub of it.

What next ?

Guy





--- On Sun, 27/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Sunday, 27 March, 2011, 9:48
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
/dev/rdsk/c5d0s0
 
OK the last command is not correct. My apologies. It should be

#  /a/usr/sbin/installgrub /a/boot/grub/stage1 /a/boot/grub/tage2 /dev/rdsk/c5d0s0

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-27 11:42:16 UTC
Permalink
It seems to come down to having the right X,Y parameters which I've now got, and I'm back in Firefox in my 0i_148-2.

I edited the grub menu for the live CD to make it correspond to my old 0i_148-2 and it booted.

Just for interest (and to prove publicly I know not what I'm doing) did all the business with zpool import, zfs mount, installgrub.....etc actually change anything ? Or is the answer to the original question of how to deal with a lost BE due to a failed mirror (which is still intact on its disk) simply to fire up a live image and edit its GRUB to point at the relevant disk?

I now need to make things permanent.

Thanks to all who helped

Guy

--- On Sun, 27/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Sunday, 27 March, 2011, 10:39
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
file not found
On two systems I have just checked:

$ ls -l
σύνολο 1
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 0 2010-05-19 17:49 pool_rpool
$ more pool_rpool
$ pwd
/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign


Now when you boot with the live thing just
make sure the file exists. Otherwise, created with

# touch /a/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign/pool_rpool


 Now the X and Y parameters in findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
corresponds to the disk partition (0 is the first one) and
the slice within the partition (slices start with a).

 A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-27 16:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
Just for interest (and to prove publicly I know not what I'm doing) did all
the business with zpool import, zfs mount, installgrub.....etc actually change 
As I said: avoid zfs mount for BEs.
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
anything ? Or is the answer to the original question of how to deal with a lost
BE due to a failed mirror (which is still intact on its disk) simply to fire up
a live image and edit its GRUB to point at the relevant disk?
I believe this is an option provided you cannot boot any other BE.

A.S.

 
----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-28 12:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Toomas Soome
and still, if you wanna have linux commands, just use linux.
 
By following this train of thought one could say that if one wants a decent
desktop he should use MacOS, or if one wants some other facility he should
use Linux, etc. To me this is simply unacceptable! If the reboot command
is buggy/stupid/inappropiate, it should be replaced. Of course it is not a
solution to remember seven switches to perform a simply task. What if
someone would tell you that in Solaris one needs to enter

$ copy -x4 -z7 -q66 original_file new_file

to copy a file?

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Tom Kranz
2011-03-28 12:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
By following this train of thought one could say that if one wants a decent
desktop he should use MacOS, or if one wants some other facility he should
use Linux, etc. To me this is simply unacceptable! If the reboot command
is buggy/stupid/inappropiate, it should be replaced. Of course it is not a
solution to remember seven switches to perform a simply task. What if
someone would tell you that in Solaris one needs to enter
$ copy -x4 -z7 -q66 original_file new_file
to copy a file?
That strikes me as a trifle contrived - copying a file is a regular occurrence, and rebooting a non-desktop machine isn't. (Unless you're doing something badly wrong)

Cheers,
TOM

- --
Tom Kranz
Email: ***@gaeltd.com Skype: siliconbunny
Mobile: 07779 149281 Phone/fax: 01344 773240
http://www.gaeltd.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/tomkranz
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 12:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Of course it is not a
solution to remember seven switches to perform a simply task.
You can accept the defaults, then you need none -- or maybe one.
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
What if
someone would tell you that in Solaris one needs to enter
$ copy -x4 -z7 -q66 original_file new_file
to copy a file?
You are missing the point. If something needs to be done regularly
on the command line, with always the same switches, then use a shell
alias. Yes, I have one for cp. :-) (It's "cp -ip".)

The shutdown command certainly is not broken. If indeed the Linux
newbie must be catered to, then we can change the defaults, and tell
them to "just use shutdown".


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Dick Hoogendijk
2011-03-28 12:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
$ copy -x4 -z7 -q66 original_file new_file
to copy a file?
Apostolos, I think you perfectly know the solaris reboot command exists
as a (simple) "shutdown 6" or if you want to go fast: "shutdown 6 now"
what is so hard about this command?
Dick Hoogendijk
2011-03-28 12:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Hoogendijk
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
$ copy -x4 -z7 -q66 original_file new_file
to copy a file?
Apostolos, I think you perfectly know the solaris reboot command
exists as a (simple) "shutdown 6" or if you want to go fast: "shutdown
6 now" what is so hard about this command?
I'm sorry. Typo. Of course I ment init 6
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-28 12:34:57 UTC
Permalink
That strikes me as a trifle contrived -  copying a file is a regular occurrence,
and rebooting a non-desktop machine isn't. (Unless you're doing
something badly wrong)
 
This is what one would call a fallacy! I am not comparing the two actions.
What I say is that it must be easy to perform either action. In different words,
the command for rebooting a system should be as obvious is the command for
file copying.

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-28 12:58:21 UTC
Permalink
The shutdown command certainly is not broken.  If indeed the Linux
newbie must be catered to, then we can change the defaults, and tell
them to "just use shutdown".
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
The GNU grep and the Solaris grep have different command line
switches but they do exactly the same thing. The same applies to
find, etc. So yes I think the defaults must change and the command
should do what is supposed to do.

A.S.

 

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Gary Gendel
2011-03-28 13:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Volker A. Brandt
The shutdown command certainly is not broken. If indeed the Linux
newbie must be catered to, then we can change the defaults, and tell
them to "just use shutdown".
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
The GNU grep and the Solaris grep have different command line
switches but they do exactly the same thing. The same applies to
find, etc. So yes I think the defaults must change and the command
should do what is supposed to do.
A.S.
I think you mean "should do what is suppose to do on Linux".

I'm really unhappy about this thread. This is a real conundrum as there
are a lot of these differences. For example, init 0 on Linux vs init 5
on Solaris and init 5 vs init 6. I'm not sure if all of them can be
resolved for everyone. I came from the other end... A long time
Solaris admin going to Linux. Why didn't everyone scream that Linux
doesn't do the right thing?

The problem is always legacy stuff. If you change the behaviors then
expect that things that people wrote for Solaris to fail. For example,
napp-it, webmin, etc.

The only acceptable solution for me is to put all the Linux compatible
stuff somewhere and let the sysadmin decide whether he wants to put that
first in the PATH. Isn't this how Solaris handled the BSD equivalents
(/usr/ucb/). I used that until I got comfortable with the SysV
replacements when we migrated from SunOS to Solaris.

Gary
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 13:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Gendel
The problem is always legacy stuff. If you change the behaviors then
expect that things that people wrote for Solaris to fail. For example,
napp-it, webmin, etc.
You are quite correct.
Post by Gary Gendel
The only acceptable solution for me is to put all the Linux compatible
stuff somewhere and let the sysadmin decide whether he wants to put that
first in the PATH. Isn't this how Solaris handled the BSD equivalents
(/usr/ucb/). I used that until I got comfortable with the SysV
replacements when we migrated from SunOS to Solaris.
That would be one solution to the problem. But it seems that the
argument of the Linux-over-Legacy-Solaris factions is that this
should be shipped enabled, and taking precedence.

I guess it boils down to the question: Should OI remain true to
the "old" Solaris, or should it run after the Linux crowd that
doesn't bother with OI anyway? My opinion can be derived from
the way I phrased the question. :-)


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
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Gary Gendel
2011-03-28 13:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Post by Gary Gendel
The problem is always legacy stuff. If you change the behaviors then
expect that things that people wrote for Solaris to fail. For example,
napp-it, webmin, etc.
You are quite correct.
Post by Gary Gendel
The only acceptable solution for me is to put all the Linux compatible
stuff somewhere and let the sysadmin decide whether he wants to put that
first in the PATH. Isn't this how Solaris handled the BSD equivalents
(/usr/ucb/). I used that until I got comfortable with the SysV
replacements when we migrated from SunOS to Solaris.
That would be one solution to the problem. But it seems that the
argument of the Linux-over-Legacy-Solaris factions is that this
should be shipped enabled, and taking precedence.
So we could make this an "install-time" option. It should provide a
nice big warning that doing this may break applications written for
(Open)Solaris. If they still want to go forward then they have been
dutifully warned.

Gary
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 13:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
The shutdown command certainly is not broken.  If indeed the Linux
newbie must be catered to, then we can change the defaults, and tell
them to "just use shutdown".
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
Sorry, I disagree. The shutdown command has been doing what I expect
it to for many years.
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
The GNU grep and the Solaris grep have different command line
switches but they do exactly the same thing. The same applies to
find, etc. So yes I think the defaults must change
Changing the default is different from changing the command.
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
and the command
should do what is supposed to do.
Well, it does already. :-)


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Al Slater
2011-03-28 13:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Volker A. Brandt
The shutdown command certainly is not broken. If indeed the Linux
newbie must be catered to, then we can change the defaults, and tell
them to "just use shutdown".
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
The reboot command most certainly does do exactly what I expect it to
do, and what it has been successfully doing for years. It may not do
what *you* expected it to do, but you know different now?

- --
Al Slater
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-28 13:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Slater
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
The reboot command most certainly does do exactly what I expect it to
do, and what it has been successfully doing for years.  It may not do
what *you* expected it to do, but you know different now?
 
Really? Do you know how many times my system became useless
just because I had used reboot?

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Al Slater
2011-03-28 14:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Al Slater
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
The reboot command most certainly does do exactly what I expect it to
do, and what it has been successfully doing for years. It may not do
what *you* expected it to do, but you know different now?
Really? Do you know how many times my system became useless
just because I had used reboot?
Nope. But I have used it 1000s of times on test and production systems
and have never managed to render a system useless.


- --
Al Slater
Toomas Soome
2011-03-28 14:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Al Slater
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
This command does not do the expected thing and that is the problem.
The reboot command most certainly does do exactly what I expect it to
do, and what it has been successfully doing for years. It may not do
what *you* expected it to do, but you know different now?
Really? Do you know how many times my system became useless
just because I had used reboot?
how about killall command? :P

toomas
Bill Sommerfeld
2011-03-28 21:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Really? Do you know how many times my system became useless
just because I had used reboot?
you're not providing an *actionable* complaint here with specifics about
how the system became "useless".

It should not be necessary to use "init 6" for the system to survive a
reboot, though some applications may be confused by this action.

I used reboot all the time on opensolaris/openindiana systems without
any problem; in some cases I've had better availability from reboot due
to hangs in shutdown scripts. live upgrade was about the only thing I
used that required init 6 rather than reboot, and I eventually worked
around that by running the LU shutdown script manually before reboot.
then I migrated systems to IPS packaging & beadm and even that became
unnecessary.

- Bill
Gregory Youngblood
2011-03-28 14:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Gary Generous wrote:
The problem is always legacy stuff. If you change the behaviors then
expect that things that people wrote for Solaris to fail. For example,
napp-it, webmin, etc.

The only acceptable solution for me is to put all the Linux compatible
stuff somewhere and let the sysadmin decide whether he wants to put that first in the PATH.)
....................

This seems the sanest. Personally I do not think the default behavior should be changed to placate linux, mac, or anyone else at the expense of Solaris compatibility.

Many years ago, 2.4 I think, one of my projects was building full set of gnu and other non Solaris tools that were ultimately mounted on all machines. Users could then adjust their own path and environment to have those appear first and get different results. This also meant scripts counting on Solaris or gnu tools had to either modify the path of most often include full paths to each tool to make sure the correct version would run.

I think the same should work here.

Perhaps going a bit further, at install time the user could select a linux compatibility mode of sorts that would put the appropriate dirs in the path first, along with the reminder that tools and scripts expecting Solaris behaviors may break as a result. A quick & simple personality tool could switch path order for the user when that occurs.

Of course this will require a lot of extra work to build into a system, at least beyond what /usr/gnu already has, and I think there are many other areas that need attention first. Definitely think this or something similar should get stuck on a to do somewhere though.

Greg

Sent f
Reginald Beardsley
2011-03-28 14:38:03 UTC
Permalink
FWIW

There is no justification for breaking the expectations of long time SunOS users because some other system does things differently. The all too common practice of gratuitously breaking things because some twit thinks it should be different is why I don't like Gnu/Linux.

At one time, my work account mounted via NFS on 6 different flavors of Unix: AIX, SunOS, HP-UX. Irix, Ultrix and Clix (Intergraph's Sys V). Because I typically had windows open on at least 4 or 5 of these at any time I had seven bin directories in ${HOME} to deal w/ this.

${HOME}/bin - shell scripts that were system neutral

${HOME}/${ARCH}/bin - system specific scripts and links to preferred executables (e.g. ${HOME}/SunOS/bin/df -> /usr/ucb/df )

This allowed me to make all the systems behave as I expected w/o further thought. If I encountered a discrepancy I made the appropriate adjustment and went back to work.

SunOS has a long history of providing many flavors of commands. No one will object to adding a few. However, changing the behavior of commands that have been around for 20+ years really doesn't make any sense. Many of these are the way they are for very specific reasons. Just because some group of users or potential users doesn't understand why is not a reason to change them. If you feel compelled to disagree, please read
"Unix Style or cat -v Considered Harmful" first.

http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v/

There is certainly justification for a man page explaining the salient differences between Solaris and other systems. But changing OpenIndiana to be something else is not a good idea.

Please note, I am not opposed to the deletion of features that have been deprecated for many years. We desperately need to do that. The partially completed transitions to new admin tools (e.g. smf(5)) can be really maddening if you're poking around something you don't deal w/ often. Printer admin is pretty confusing w/ lp, lpr and cups all mashed up together.

But turning OpenIndiana into a Gnu/Linux or *BSD distro won't get a larger user base. Rather it will result in a smaller user base.

Have Fun!
Reg
Alasdair Lumsden
2011-03-28 15:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

My proposal would be to add a "Linux/*BSD"-like reboot and shutdown
command to /usr/gnu/bin

The traditionalist UNIX folk don't typically run /usr/gnu/bin at the
front of their path, whilst the more progressive amongst us do. So this
should satisfy both parties.

When I was switching from a Linux/FreeBSD background to Solaris, I found
the unnecessarily complicated reboot/shutdown situation highly
frustrating. Typing "init 6" and "init 5" when you mean "reboot" and
"shutdown" seemed utterly bizarre, and stupid, and angered me.

Rather than do a half-baked shell script that wraps the existing tools,
I think we should probably do a bit more research and implement
something a bit more "proper" with similar FreeBSD/Linux like syntax
(depending on what that syntax is - I haven't looked in a while).

Cheers,

Alasdair
Jonathan Adams
2011-03-28 15:24:14 UTC
Permalink
1) "the more progressive amongst us do" I take exception to this
statement ... some of the GNU commands are broken on Solaris, and
secure accounts should have as little in it's path (if you use root or
any secure account) as possible so that you can be _sure_ of which app
you are using.

2) "reboot" does what it says on the tin, "shutdown" works as would be
expected (you can use shutdown to run many different types of
shutdown/init) ...

Please do not change these to make them more like Linux, please do not
change the init levels to make them match Linux, IMO the Linux init
states are broken.

If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Hi All,
My proposal would be to add a "Linux/*BSD"-like reboot and shutdown command
to /usr/gnu/bin
The traditionalist UNIX folk don't typically run /usr/gnu/bin at the front
of their path, whilst the more progressive amongst us do. So this should
satisfy both parties.
When I was switching from a Linux/FreeBSD background to Solaris, I found the
unnecessarily complicated reboot/shutdown situation highly frustrating.
Typing "init 6" and "init 5" when you mean "reboot" and "shutdown" seemed
utterly bizarre, and stupid, and angered me.
Rather than do a half-baked shell script that wraps the existing tools, I
think we should probably do a bit more research and implement something a
bit more "proper" with similar FreeBSD/Linux like syntax (depending on what
that syntax is - I haven't looked in a while).
Cheers,
Alasdair
_______________________________________________
OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 15:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Adams
If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
Couldn't have said it better. +99 :-)
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Mark
2011-03-30 06:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Post by Jonathan Adams
If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
Couldn't have said it better. +99 :-)
And when you didn't really mean to press that power button, press it
twice and it will cancel, if it can .....
Svein Skogen (Listmail account)
2011-03-30 06:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Volker A. Brandt
Post by Jonathan Adams
If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
Couldn't have said it better. +99 :-)
And when you didn't really mean to press that power button, press it
twice and it will cancel, if it can .....
"If it can". But it's a good way to discover that the powerbutton was
exposed on the top surface of the tower chassis. Usually discovered
after you've stretched behind that same tower to move a cable. The
feeling is not all unlike the feeling after "discovering" furniture in
the dark.

//Svein
--
--------+-------------------+-------------------------------
/"\ |Svein Skogen | ***@d80.iso100.no
\ / |Solberg Østli 9 | PGP Key: 0xE5E76831
X |2020 Skedsmokorset | ***@jernhuset.no
/ \ |Norway | PGP Key: 0xCE96CE13
| | ***@stillbilde.net
ascii | | PGP Key: 0x58CD33B6
ribbon |System Admin | svein-***@stillbilde.net
Campaign|stillbilde.net | PGP Key: 0x22D494A4
+-------------------+-------------------------------
|msn messenger: | Mobile Phone: +47 907 03 575
|***@jernhuset.no | RIPE handle: SS16503-RIPE
--------+-------------------+-------------------------------
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
------------------------------------------------------------
Picture Gallery:
https://gallery.stillbilde.net/v/svein/
------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin J. Woolley
2011-03-28 15:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Adams
1) "the more progressive amongst us do" I take exception to this
statement ... some of the GNU commands are broken on Solaris, and
secure accounts should have as little in it's path (if you use root or
any secure account) as possible so that you can be _sure_ of which app
you are using.
Surely you expect that people who are interested in using an
alternative version of a command are capable of maintaining their PATH
so they know exactly which tool they're using.
Post by Jonathan Adams
2) "reboot" does what it says on the tin, "shutdown" works as would be
expected (you can use shutdown to run many different types of
shutdown/init) ...
Please do not change these to make them more like Linux, please do not
change the init levels to make them match Linux, IMO the Linux init
states are broken.
I don't remember anyone suggesting changing the initlevels.
Post by Jonathan Adams
If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
You've never seen a Linux server before? Strange -- they seem to be
all over the place.

Simply put, no one is going to force you to use it. It's not going to
cause the system to explode, and it's unlikely an untrusted local user
is going to be able to root a system with it, or anything similarly
catastrophic.

http://bikeshed.com/

Cheers,

kjw
Jonathan Adams
2011-03-28 15:48:14 UTC
Permalink
feel free to create these script and store them in a folder called
"/usr/myreboots" you can then add this to your path:

reboot:
#!/sbin/sh
init 6

shutdown:
#!/sbin/sh
init 5

thankyou.
Post by Kevin J. Woolley
Post by Jonathan Adams
1) "the more progressive amongst us do" I take exception to this
statement ... some of the GNU commands are broken on Solaris, and
secure accounts should have as little in it's path (if you use root or
any secure account) as possible so that you can be _sure_ of which app
you are using.
Surely you expect that people who are interested in using an
alternative version of a command are capable of maintaining their PATH
so they know exactly which tool they're using.
Post by Jonathan Adams
2) "reboot" does what it says on the tin, "shutdown" works as would be
expected (you can use shutdown to run many different types of
shutdown/init) ...
Please do not change these to make them more like Linux, please do not
change the init levels to make them match Linux, IMO the Linux init
states are broken.
I don't remember anyone suggesting changing the initlevels.
Post by Jonathan Adams
If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
You've never seen a Linux server before?  Strange -- they seem to be
all over the place.
Simply put, no one is going to force you to use it.  It's not going to
cause the system to explode, and it's unlikely an untrusted local user
is going to be able to root a system with it, or anything similarly
catastrophic.
http://bikeshed.com/
Cheers,
kjw
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OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list
http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Kevin J. Woolley
2011-03-28 15:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Adams
feel free to create these script and store them in a folder called
#!/sbin/sh
init 6
#!/sbin/sh
init 5
thankyou.
Please feel free to use this shell script to "fix" your new releases:

#!/bin/sh
rm -f /usr/gnu/bin/reboot /usr/gnu/bin/shutdown

Or simply leave /usr/gnu/bin out of your path.

Cheers,

kjw
Alasdair Lumsden
2011-03-28 15:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Woolley
#!/bin/sh
rm -f /usr/gnu/bin/reboot /usr/gnu/bin/shutdown
Or simply leave /usr/gnu/bin out of your path.
+1
Svein Skogen (Listmail account)
2011-03-28 15:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Woolley
#!/bin/sh
rm -f /usr/gnu/bin/reboot /usr/gnu/bin/shutdown
Or simply leave /usr/gnu/bin out of your path.
+1
How would this affect those of us so confused by variants of BSD/SysVR4,
that we need to check uname to remember the correct syntax for this
particular box?

This half-attempt at a joke is directed at people wanting to gnu-i-fy
everything. "Just because Linux does so" doesn't mean things are good ideas.

//Svein
--
--------+-------------------+-------------------------------
/"\ |Svein Skogen | ***@d80.iso100.no
\ / |Solberg Østli 9 | PGP Key: 0xE5E76831
X |2020 Skedsmokorset | ***@jernhuset.no
/ \ |Norway | PGP Key: 0xCE96CE13
| | ***@stillbilde.net
ascii | | PGP Key: 0x58CD33B6
ribbon |System Admin | svein-***@stillbilde.net
Campaign|stillbilde.net | PGP Key: 0x22D494A4
+-------------------+-------------------------------
|msn messenger: | Mobile Phone: +47 907 03 575
|***@jernhuset.no | RIPE handle: SS16503-RIPE
--------+-------------------+-------------------------------
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
------------------------------------------------------------
Picture Gallery:
https://gallery.stillbilde.net/v/svein/
------------------------------------------------------------
John McEntee
2011-03-28 16:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
-----Original Message-----
From: Svein Skogen (Listmail account)
Sent: 28 March 2011 16:57
How would this affect those of us so confused by variants of BSD/SysVR4,
that we need to check uname to remember the correct syntax for this
particular >box?


Now, who in their right mind would suggest you have to check uname every
time before changing run levels.






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Jonathan Adams
2011-03-28 16:35:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm not sure about you, but if I'm changing run levels, and I'm remote
accessing a machine, I _do_ double check with uname ... mainly to make
sure I'm on the correct host, not the OS.

I remember the phone conversation after I connected into birmingham
instead of braintree ... the names of the servers are _too_similar :)

It's become a habit now :)

Jon
Post by Svein Skogen (Listmail account)
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
-----Original Message-----
From: Svein Skogen (Listmail account)
Sent: 28 March 2011 16:57
How would this affect those of us so confused by variants of BSD/SysVR4,
that we need to check uname to remember the correct syntax for this
particular >box?
Now, who in their right mind would suggest you have to check uname every
time before changing run levels.
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Kevin J. Woolley
2011-03-28 16:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by John McEntee
Now, who in their right mind would suggest you have to check uname every
time before changing run levels.
It kind of makes sense -- if you're on Solaris you need to use
"shutdown -i 6 -g 0" to reboot, and on everything else you need to use
"reboot" or "shutdown -r". ;)

(This holds true for at least the BSDs, OS X (IIRC), Linux, HP-UX, and AIX.)

Cheers,

kjw
Deano
2011-03-28 17:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Regardless of what Solaris does, what Linux does and so on. Clarity and
future userability of OPEN INDIANA is more important than all other concerns
and for that reason alone reboot and shutdown, should be available by
default and do exactly what they say on the tin.

Let's not get stuck as a legacy OS, or if that is what OI is meant to be
lets state that so we don't work hard trying to cater for new users!

Bye,
Deano

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin J. Woolley [mailto:***@javabunny.net]
Sent: 28 March 2011 17:50
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] reboot/shutdown commands (Was: Re: OI
boot problem)
Post by John McEntee
Now, who in their right mind would suggest you have to check uname every
time before changing run levels.
It kind of makes sense -- if you're on Solaris you need to use
"shutdown -i 6 -g 0" to reboot, and on everything else you need to use
"reboot" or "shutdown -r". ;)

(This holds true for at least the BSDs, OS X (IIRC), Linux, HP-UX, and AIX.)

Cheers,

kjw
Didier Carlier
2011-03-28 17:30:04 UTC
Permalink
shutdown -r is ok, it used to be there in SunOS 4 (bsd based at the time) and -r is not used currently.
For reboot, I really does not understand why the subject is so hot...
init 6 is juste as short and reboot on Solaris has other options which are not there on Linux. And it does what it says.
Anyway, if someone switches from Linux to OpenIndiana there are so many other, more important things to learn that this debate looks really displaced (very personal opinion of course).
Post by Deano
Regardless of what Solaris does, what Linux does and so on. Clarity and
future userability of OPEN INDIANA is more important than all other concerns
and for that reason alone reboot and shutdown, should be available by
default and do exactly what they say on the tin.
Let's not get stuck as a legacy OS, or if that is what OI is meant to be
lets state that so we don't work hard trying to cater for new users!
Bye,
Deano
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 28 March 2011 17:50
To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] reboot/shutdown commands (Was: Re: OI
boot problem)
Post by John McEntee
Now, who in their right mind would suggest you have to check uname every
time before changing run levels.
It kind of makes sense -- if you're on Solaris you need to use
"shutdown -i 6 -g 0" to reboot, and on everything else you need to use
"reboot" or "shutdown -r". ;)
(This holds true for at least the BSDs, OS X (IIRC), Linux, HP-UX, and AIX.)
Cheers,
kjw
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Kevin J. Woolley
2011-03-28 17:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Didier Carlier
shutdown -r is ok, it used to be there in SunOS 4 (bsd based at the time) and -r is not used currently.
For reboot, I really does not understand why the subject is so hot...
init 6 is juste as short and reboot on Solaris has other options which are not there on Linux. And it does what it says.
Anyway, if someone switches from Linux to OpenIndiana there are so many other, more important things to learn that this debate looks really displaced (very personal opinion of course).
Agreed -- as far as I can tell, no one has suggested actually changing
the existing shutdown/reboot. The proposal was to put alternate
versions in /usr/gnu/bin.

I have fond memories of SunOS 4, and was so excited when I got my
hands on Solaris 2.5. I didn't think it'd get to version 11 so
quickly. :) Nor did I think Sun would fade away as it has.
Interesting times!

Cheers,

kjw
Volker A. Brandt
2011-03-28 21:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevin J. Woolley
Agreed -- as far as I can tell, no one has suggested actually changing
the existing shutdown/reboot. The proposal was to put alternate
versions in /usr/gnu/bin.
Well, I had suggested to change the default runlevel that shutdown
will change into when none is supplied on the command line. Currently,
it will go into s aka single user mode, 6 aka graceful reboot might
be better.


Regards -- Volker
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Brandt Consulting and Support for Oracle Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: ***@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513 Schuhgröße: 46
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
Robin Axelsson
2011-03-28 19:46:53 UTC
Permalink
I'm also happy with the init 5/6 commands but I'm a little annoyed that
pressing the power button does not shut down the system. When I press
it, the system conducts a 30 seconds countdown to shutdown and then
nothing happens. I have not tested this thoroughly on b148 but it was a
nuisance to find out about it on b134.
Post by Jonathan Adams
1) "the more progressive amongst us do" I take exception to this
statement ... some of the GNU commands are broken on Solaris, and
secure accounts should have as little in it's path (if you use root or
any secure account) as possible so that you can be _sure_ of which app
you are using.
2) "reboot" does what it says on the tin, "shutdown" works as would be
expected (you can use shutdown to run many different types of
shutdown/init) ...
Please do not change these to make them more like Linux, please do not
change the init levels to make them match Linux, IMO the Linux init
states are broken.
If you're using a server then expect to know some of the commands for
running the server. If you're using the desktop there is a nice
graphical "Shutdown" routine. If you're in front of the hardware and
you want to power down (and it's an ATX case) press the power button
once.
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Hi All,
My proposal would be to add a "Linux/*BSD"-like reboot and shutdown command
to /usr/gnu/bin
The traditionalist UNIX folk don't typically run /usr/gnu/bin at the front
of their path, whilst the more progressive amongst us do. So this should
satisfy both parties.
When I was switching from a Linux/FreeBSD background to Solaris, I found the
unnecessarily complicated reboot/shutdown situation highly frustrating.
Typing "init 6" and "init 5" when you mean "reboot" and "shutdown" seemed
utterly bizarre, and stupid, and angered me.
Rather than do a half-baked shell script that wraps the existing tools, I
think we should probably do a bit more research and implement something a
bit more "proper" with similar FreeBSD/Linux like syntax (depending on what
that syntax is - I haven't looked in a while).
Cheers,
Alasdair
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Guido Berhoerster
2011-03-28 15:51:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alasdair Lumsden
Hi All,
My proposal would be to add a "Linux/*BSD"-like reboot and shutdown
command to /usr/gnu/bin
The traditionalist UNIX folk don't typically run /usr/gnu/bin at the
front of their path, whilst the more progressive amongst us do. So
this should satisfy both parties.
When I was switching from a Linux/FreeBSD background to Solaris, I
found the unnecessarily complicated reboot/shutdown situation highly
frustrating. Typing "init 6" and "init 5" when you mean "reboot" and
"shutdown" seemed utterly bizarre, and stupid, and angered me.
Rather than do a half-baked shell script that wraps the existing
tools, I think we should probably do a bit more research and
implement something a bit more "proper" with similar FreeBSD/Linux
like syntax (depending on what that syntax is - I haven't looked in
a while).
I don't see what's progressive about the BSD and Linux shutdown
implementations, they just have different commandline options and
little more useful functionality (ie. message and more flexible
scheduling).
Solaris /usr/sbin/shutdown is itself a shellscript wrapping
around init. Commandline options between BSD and Linux differ
and most of them (except -r, -h, time and message) seem pretty
much useless anyway.

Manpages are at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.2-RELEASE&format=html
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=8&manpath=SuSE+Linux%2Fi386+11.3&format=html

Code at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sbin/shutdown/
http://svn.savannah.nongnu.org/viewvc/sysvinit/trunk/src/?root=sysvinit

I guess we should better discuss implementation details with Illumos.
--
Guido Berhoerster
Toomas Soome
2011-03-28 15:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guido Berhoerster
I don't see what's progressive about the BSD and Linux shutdown
implementations, they just have different commandline options and
little more useful functionality (ie. message and more flexible
scheduling).
Solaris /usr/sbin/shutdown is itself a shellscript wrapping
around init. Commandline options between BSD and Linux differ
and most of them (except -r, -h, time and message) seem pretty
much useless anyway.
Manpages are at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.2-RELEASE&format=html
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=8&manpath=SuSE+Linux%2Fi386+11.3&format=html
Code at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sbin/shutdown/
http://svn.savannah.nongnu.org/viewvc/sysvinit/trunk/src/?root=sysvinit
i think you need to add --help and --do-really-fast-boot and --be-quiet-and-just-fucking-halt as well.

ah, and stuff like "-x (this option is now outdated and will be removed in future)" and "-z (this option was removed, use -x instead)"

maybe you should consider fixing those broken gnu tools before breaking solaris any more?

toomas
Colin Ellis
2011-03-28 16:01:17 UTC
Permalink
And fix those broken Oracle things like 'cmake'...
Post by Guido Berhoerster
Post by Guido Berhoerster
I don't see what's progressive about the BSD and Linux shutdown
implementations, they just have different commandline options and
little more useful functionality (ie. message and more flexible
scheduling).
Solaris /usr/sbin/shutdown is itself a shellscript wrapping
around init. Commandline options between BSD and Linux differ
and most of them (except -r, -h, time and message) seem pretty
much useless anyway.
Manpages are at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.2-RELEASE&format=html
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=8&manpath=SuSE+Linux%2Fi386+11.3&format=html
Post by Guido Berhoerster
Code at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sbin/shutdown/
http://svn.savannah.nongnu.org/viewvc/sysvinit/trunk/src/?root=sysvinit
i think you need to add --help and --do-really-fast-boot and
--be-quiet-and-just-fucking-halt as well.
ah, and stuff like "-x (this option is now outdated and will be removed in
future)" and "-z (this option was removed, use -x instead)"
maybe you should consider fixing those broken gnu tools before breaking solaris any more?
toomas
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Toomas Soome
2011-03-28 16:04:54 UTC
Permalink
this one?

pkg:/developer/build/***@2.6.2-0.151.0.1
pkg.description set CMake - A cross-platform open-source make system (2.6.2)

http://www.cmake.org/

....
Post by Colin Ellis
And fix those broken Oracle things like 'cmake'...
Post by Guido Berhoerster
Post by Guido Berhoerster
I don't see what's progressive about the BSD and Linux shutdown
implementations, they just have different commandline options and
little more useful functionality (ie. message and more flexible
scheduling).
Solaris /usr/sbin/shutdown is itself a shellscript wrapping
around init. Commandline options between BSD and Linux differ
and most of them (except -r, -h, time and message) seem pretty
much useless anyway.
Manpages are at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8.2-RELEASE&format=html
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=shutdown&apropos=0&sektion=8&manpath=SuSE+Linux%2Fi386+11.3&format=html
Post by Guido Berhoerster
Code at
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sbin/shutdown/
http://svn.savannah.nongnu.org/viewvc/sysvinit/trunk/src/?root=sysvinit
i think you need to add --help and --do-really-fast-boot and
--be-quiet-and-just-fucking-halt as well.
ah, and stuff like "-x (this option is now outdated and will be removed in
future)" and "-z (this option was removed, use -x instead)"
maybe you should consider fixing those broken gnu tools before breaking solaris any more?
toomas
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Gregory Youngblood
2011-03-28 14:58:16 UTC
Permalink
I did something similar, my bash profile looked at os, hostname, and couple of other details and sourced appropriate files to build my user environment. This way I had same basic set of bash files on multiple machines between work & home, spanning Solaris, linux, and mac.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Reginald Beardsley" <***@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, Mar 28, 2011 7:38 am
Subject: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>

FWIW

There is no justification for breaking the expectations of long time SunOS users because some other system does things differently. The all too common practice of gratuitously breaking things because some twit thinks it should be different is why I don't like Gnu/Linux.

At one time, my work account mounted via NFS on 6 different flavors of Unix: AIX, SunOS, HP-UX. Irix, Ultrix and Clix (Intergraph's Sys V). Because I typically had windows open on at least 4 or 5 of these at any time I had seven bin directories in ${HOME} to deal w/ this.

${HOME}/bin - shell scripts that were system neutral

${HOME}/${ARCH}/bin - system specific scripts and links to preferred executables (e.g. ${HOME}/SunOS/bin/df -> /usr/ucb/df )

This allowed me to make all the systems behave as I expected w/o further thought. If I encountered a discrepancy I made the appropriate adjustment and went back to work.

SunOS has a long history of providing many flavors of commands. No one will object to adding a few. However, changing the behavior of commands that have been around for 20+ years really doesn't make any sense. Many of these are the way they are for very specific reasons. Just because some group of users or potential users doesn't understand why is not a reason to change them. If you feel compelled to disagree, please read
"Unix Style or cat -v Considered Harmful" first.

http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v/

There is certainly justification for a man page explaining the salient differences between Solaris and other systems. But changing OpenIndiana to be something else is not a good idea.

Please note, I am not opposed to the deletion of features that have been deprecated for many years. We desperately need to do that. The partially completed transitions to new admin tools (e.g. smf(5)) can be really maddening if you're poking around something you don't deal w/ often. Printer admin is pretty confusing w/ lp, lpr and cups all mashed up together.

But turning OpenIndiana into a Gnu/Linux or *BSD distro won't get a larger user base. Rather it will result in a smaller user base.

Have Fun!
Reg
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-28 15:39:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reginald Beardsley
SunOS has a long history of providing many flavors of commands. No one will
object to adding a few.  However, changing the behavior of commands that have
been around for 20+ years really doesn't make any sense.  Many of these are
 
But that is exactly the problem with these commands: they are too old and
outdated. In many respects this was the main problem of Solaris: it was
not moving fast enough.

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Michael Schuster
2011-03-28 16:51:38 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 17:39, Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Reginald Beardsley
SunOS has a long history of providing many flavors of commands. No one will
object to adding a few.  However, changing the behavior of commands that have
been around for 20+ years really doesn't make any sense.  Many of these are
But that is exactly the problem with these commands: they are too old and
outdated. In many respects this was the main problem of Solaris: it was
not moving fast enough.
I fail to see the benefit of changing well-known behaviour in an
incompatible way. Change for the sake of change may be chique for
fashion items, but not necessarily a good thing in a server-grade OS.

Michael
--
regards/mit freundlichen Grüssen
Michael Schuster
Al Slater
2011-03-28 18:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schuster
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 17:39, Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Reginald Beardsley
SunOS has a long history of providing many flavors of commands. No one will
object to adding a few. However, changing the behavior of commands that have
been around for 20+ years really doesn't make any sense. Many of these are
But that is exactly the problem with these commands: they are too old and
outdated. In many respects this was the main problem of Solaris: it was
not moving fast enough.
I fail to see the benefit of changing well-known behaviour in an
incompatible way. Change for the sake of change may be chique for
fashion items, but not necessarily a good thing in a server-grade OS.
+1
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-28 16:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
           I'm back at this - problem with pool_rpool continues. I get nothing from using "touch" as per your email below

***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec zpool import -f rpool
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec mkdir /a
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec beadm mount 0i_148-2 /a
***@opensolaris:~$ pfexec touch /a/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign/pool_rpool
touch: cannot touch `/a/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign/pool_rpool': No such file or directory

What am I doing wrong ?

Guy


--- On Sun, 27/3/11, Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Apostolos Syropoulos <***@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Sunday, 27 March, 2011, 10:39
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
file not found
On two systems I have just checked:

$ ls -l
σύνολο 1
-r--r--r-- 1 root root 0 2010-05-19 17:49 pool_rpool
$ more pool_rpool
$ pwd
/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign


Now when you boot with the live thing just
make sure the file exists. Otherwise, created with

# touch /a/rpool/boot/grub/bootsign/pool_rpool


 Now the X and Y parameters in findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
corresponds to the disk partition (0 is the first one) and
the slice within the partition (slices start with a).

 A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece



     
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-28 17:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schuster
I fail to see the benefit of changing well-known behaviour in an
incompatible way. Change for the sake of change may be chique for
fashion items, but not necessarily a good thing in a server-grade OS.
 
Hey but that's exactly another problem: this is not a server OS only.
The graphics and audio drivers have nothing to do with servers
but they are extremely important for desktop users. This server
attitude is what has destroyed Sun. Microsoft and Apple sell
desktops...

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
Michael Schuster
2011-03-28 18:10:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 19:23, Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Apostolos Syropoulos
Post by Michael Schuster
I fail to see the benefit of changing well-known behaviour in an
incompatible way. Change for the sake of change may be chique for
fashion items, but not necessarily a good thing in a server-grade OS.
Hey but that's exactly another problem: this is not a server OS only.
The graphics and audio drivers have nothing to do with servers
but they are extremely important for desktop users. This server
attitude is what has destroyed Sun.
if only it were that simple (and no, I have no special insight, but
your statement is a drastic oversimplification) ...

Michael
--
regards/mit freundlichen Grüssen
Michael Schuster
GUY WOOLLEY
2011-03-28 21:35:09 UTC
Permalink
         Apostolos has been helping me with a broken OI installation - hence the thread title "OI boot problem" which I started last week; sometime yesterday that thread was partially diverted into commentary about the virtues of shutdown, reboot, init etc. - irrelevant to my question. "shutdown" discussions have now moved into some new thread, but I guess there will be interference between the two lines. Sorry for the inconvenience.....

Guy


--- On Mon, 28/3/11, Nikola M. <***@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Nikola M. <***@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OI boot problem
To: "Discussion list for OpenIndiana" <openindiana-***@openindiana.org>
Date: Monday, 28 March, 2011, 21:57
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
findroot (pool_rpool,X,Y)
Apostolos, Hi,
Sorry but it is interesting to me and I need to ask:
Is it only me or I keep seeing your every message as new topic?
Could it be it is you? and do you think it could be avoided for you somehow?

(I personally hit reply in Thunderbird and Every time I get message
right inline with topics, like it should.)
Cheers!
Nikola M.
2011-03-29 00:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by GUY WOOLLEY
discussions have now moved into some new thread,
but I guess there will be interference between the two lines.
Sorry for the inconvenience.....
Think Apostolos should be check he's mail client
(ditch yahoo or something), since he was starting new threads with he's
responses since 2010/10/16:

Loading Image.../
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-29 11:03:17 UTC
Permalink
 > Apostolos, Hi,
Post by Nikola M.
Is it only me or I keep seeing your every message as new topic?
Could it be it is you? and do you think it could be avoided for you somehow?
I really do not understand what this is supposed to mean.
I am using YAHOO! Mail and I reply using the web interface.
I am not using any mailer at all. If YAHOO! does something
"fancy" I am not responsible. On the other hand, I could
just stop posting...

A.S.


----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
http://obelix.ee.duth.gr/~apostolo
http://asyropoulos.wordpress.com
http://hypercomputation.blogspot.com/
Apostolos Syropoulos
2011-03-29 19:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dick Hoogendijk
Apostolos, I think you perfectly know the solaris reboot command exists as
a (simple) "shutdown 6" or if you want to go fast: "shutdown 6
now" what is so hard about this command?
I'm sorry. Typo. Of course I ment init 6
Yes of course, but that was not the point I was trying to make ;-)

A.S.

----------------------
Apostolos Syropoulos
Xanthi, Greece
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